Война в Южной Осетии

[Xenobarbital]

Есть ли у РФ авианосцы, нет ли у нее их... все равно в Черном море они бы не оказались

А ну да, Дарданеллы-шмарданеллы ))) ТАКР "Кузнецов" и то еле дёру дал )))

[Semetoja]

С нею, родимой, ключевой ролью Грузии в судьбе...

Это когда пьяный грузинский начальник таможни на несколько часов целое государство может без солярки оставить...

[mshput]

:flower: давайте оставим западные СМИ и классический русский вопрос "кто виноват?" в стороне - это уже ничего не меняет.

сейчас гораздо насущнее другой русский вопрос - "что делать?. на данный конкретный момент Армения осталась без коммуникаций и газа. счас ужесточат еще санкции против Ирана, а к зиме, не дай Бог, начнут там войну - и всё... опять последний хрен без соли доедать будут в Армении. :wallbash:

[Prankster]

Ничего пока не ясно. Есть риск (или шанс) что Грузия будет конкурировать с Арменией в звании "лучший форпост года". Итогда коммуникации могут быстро восстановить.

[adi]

Сем, вчера в ночном выпуске программы "ВЕСТИ" попросили убрать от экранов ТВ детей и женщин и показали убитых мальчишек - грузин. И текст комен, примерно: "и так будет с каждым грузином.." Это мягко говоря перебор.

Я не пытаюсь фильтровать фальшивки, я вообще не хочу на это смотреть, потому что каждый из нас, к сожалению, прекрасно знает, что это такое - война. Многие не по картинкам. Реальность в данном случае намного хуже любой фальшивки. Надо это учитывать.

[berg]

Ничего пока не ясно. Есть риск (или шанс) что Грузия будет конкурировать с Арменией в звании "лучший форпост года". Итогда коммуникации могут быстро восстановить.

Армения -лучший экспортёр нефти

[Semetoja]

Классная картинка прошла по ТВ. Русская и грузинская спортсменки обнялись на пьедестале в знак дружбы и мира. Причем у обеиx на глазаx были слезы. Hа завоевашую золото и ничего не понимавшую китаянку, все просто забили))))

По русским каналам показывали?

[Anahit]

давайте оставим западные СМИ и классический русский вопрос "кто виноват?" в стороне - это уже ничего не меняет.

[Zveroboj]

Насчет того, что "грузины на такое не способны", "способны" наверное только русские. Текст ниже о войне 1991-2 гг. рекомендую к прочтению - там очень много можно понять о "братсве" между осетинами и грузинами. Текст не полностью (облом все редактировать) приведен из доклада Helsinki Watch 1992 года.

Looting and Beating of Civilians by Geirgians

Georgian paramilitaries systematically raided Ossetian homes in Tamarasheni. Bachaeva's livestock had been hauled away a few days before the above event, and five days afterward a group of three broke into her home. The raiders apparently suspected that Bachaeva had money buried in her yard, and beat her brutally to force her to find it for them. They finished by setting Bachaeva on fire:

They asked me where the money was. They wore heavy boots and beat me badly, kicked my ears with their boots. There were two beds. They tied my legs to one bed and my hands to another. They put a knife to my throat and then [gagged me]. I was unable to breath through my mouth. They continued to beat me. They took the kerosene lamp and poured kerosene onto my bosom. Then they took a match and lit me on fire. Then they left.

Bachaeva was able to free herself and put out the fire. She then went to a nearby construction site where she said a Georgian guard treated her kindly by warming her up and calling a doctor. Fortunately, she suffered no burns because she had been wearing several layers of clothing. Helsinki Watch representatives saw the burned sweater she had been wearing as a first layer, which still smelled of kerosene. She spent three months in the hospital in Tskhinvali to recover from bruised ribs and other injuries sustained during the beating. Her house was burned down the morning after the raid.

TLIAKANA

Tliakana is an all-Ossetian village thirteen km from Tskhinvali that was attacked in March 1991. Helsinki Watch interviewed three people from Tliakana, who separately reported that the village had been raided several times during the winter of 1990-1991, and that fourteen or fifteen houses had been burned on March 26, 1991. As a result of this raid, six villagers were killed, some of their bodies badly charred. Among the villagers who died was Nadezhda Tsakhilova, age 65. We spoke with her son and husband, who had fled the village. Rumors of the raid prompted the middle-aged son to go to the village on the evening of March 26. When he arrived,

I saw the corpse of my mother. Her head had been cut off and her body bore traces of bullets. I thought they tried to burn her inside her house; when she rushed out, maybe they tried to shoot her. She was six meters away from the gate, outside the courtyard in the street.

Ruslan Kulumbegov, whose parents also lived in Tliakana, accompanied the man to the village and also saw Tsakhilova's body. In a separate interview, Kulumbegov said, "Her head was cut off. Nadia lived in the village. It looked like there were bullets inside the body, but I'm not sure."

Tsakhilova's son also reported: "I saw about fifteen houses, all Ossetian, that were still burning. They didn't even let the cattle go . . .."

Tsakhilova's 77-year-old widower, who was quite ill and spoke in a weak voice, told Helsinki Watch that his house had been robbed and "turned upside down" sometime before the March 26 raid:

The Georgians came at noon. There were 15 of them. No one resisted. They took 6,000 rubles and took away the mattresses, towels, etc. They went from house to house and stayed in the village about five hours. They came back twice after that, and [the third time] they killed my wife.

The parents of Ruslan Kulumbegov, Grisha Kulumbegov and Taisa Dzhabieva, were also killed during the March 26 raid:

As I entered the remnants of [my parents'] house I saw dead bodies. It was obvious from the pieces of flesh on the bones that they were burned. . . I saw the houses that were still [smoldering].

Kulumbegov was able to identify his father from the capped teeth that remained on the corpse; his mother's body had been reduced to ashes. He also went around to the other burned houses in Tliakana and saw the charred corpse of a 90-year old woman.

Kulumbegov asserted that the troubles in Tliakana began in the winter of 1989, when Georgian bandits would come to the house demanding money. His parents, like many elderly people in the villages, decided not to leave:

My parents thought that because they were old people no one would hurt them. Many other people got frightened and left the village. My parents were often told that this was Georgian land and that they had to leave and go where they belonged.

ATREVI

Grigorii Dobusov, a retired collective farm chief from Atrevi, an all-Ossetian village fifteen km north of Tskhinvali, testified that his village was raided repeatedly, beginning in December 1990. After he fled the village at the end of March, all of the fifty houses of Atrevi were burned. The attackers came both from neighboring villages and from the Gori district. They were armed, came in large numbers, and during their raids, said "that [Ossetians] had no right to live on the land, and we should free it for them."

Both Dobusov and Hariton Kaziev separately attested that raiders remained in the village after the murder of three villagers (see below, under Indiscriminate Attacks). Kaziev said that the Georgians "occupied and robbed the houses," although his house was not robbed during this raid.

Dobusov averred that "the invaders stayed two hours in the village. They went around the whole village . . . and went into the houses." After his home was plundered in two raids, robbing him of everything, including his livestock, furniture, and money, he and his wife fled. Their house was burned after they left.

ARTSEVI

Artsevi had about 700 houses, many of them Georgian, and was surrounded by other Georgian villages. According to separate accounts of three refugees from Artsevi, not a single Ossetian remains in the village. All three reported that beginning in January 1991, Georgian "informals" began to invade and plunder the village, and that the Ossetians would sleep in the forest at night to avoid the danger of an encounter with them. All had been robbed of their livestock, household belongings, clothing, and the like. The paramilitaries also apparently fired indiscriminately at night in the streets and at Ossetian houses, terrorizing their inhabitants, and targeted Ossetians whom they suspected of seeking aid from the USSR MVD troops.

The paramilitaries burned down many of the Ossetian houses in Artsevi. A 53-year old man who left Artsevi in September 1991 reported that half of the houses in the village had been burned. He witnessed the burning of houses, and was able to describe the remains of the burned houses. He did not, however, witness the lighting of the fires:

Half the houses in the village of Artsevi were burned down by the Georgians. I saw some of them were on fire. They burned one or two one night, then more the next night. There was no one in the houses when they were set on fire. The inhabitants of the houses had gone by then. They first stole the things in the houses and then set the houses on fire.

The village had houses of two stories, made of brick. The floors were of wood and the Georgians poured petrol or kerosene on the floors to burn the houses. There was nothing left inside. Even the brick was ruined, cracked by the fire, and cannot be restored. The roofs . . . burned like a match. It caught on fire quick and made a big fire, like a war.

Another refugee from Artsevi, a young woman who had worked as an accountant in Tskhinvali, also described the burning of houses:

I do not remember how many houses were burned. People recently said that all the Ossetian houses were burned. By the time I left [in April], there were many burned houses. There were about five or six houses, all Ossetian, on my street that had been burned.

They set fire to the ceiling and floor, which was of wood. The house burned from the inside and the brick walls were left standing. These were one and two story houses. Many had two story houses and many of them were new.

By Ossetians

TSKHINVALI

Introduction. The situation of Georgians living in Tskhinvali began to deteriorate after the aborted march on Tskhinvali in November 1989, and worsened sharply toward the end of 1990. One Georgian refugee interviewed by Helsinki Watch complained that Georgians had problems getting bread in shops. [We] couldn't even get into shops. Ossetians wouldn't let us in. The shopkeepers would know we were Georgians because we were speaking Georgian. Whoever didn't speak Ossetian didn't get served.

Others reported that they were not permitted to speak Georgian. Olga Gobieva, who is half Russian and half Ossetian, said:

In September, October, and November [1990] there were strikes against having to learn Georgian. You couldn't speak Georgian there anymore. Not a single lesson [in schools] was conducted in Georgian all year.

Another woman, who was a teacher in one of the four Georgian schools in Tskhinvali, said that towards the end of November Ossetian thugs came every day to the school where she worked and beat up Georgian boys.

The school administration couldn't cope with the situation, and there was no one we could turn to for help. When we called the militia, they would say, "Get Gamsakhurdia to help." They refused to come. Sometimes Georgian teachers would call, sometimes Ossetian teachers would. The school's administration was Georgian.

Violations. The majority of the Georgians Helsinki Watch interviewed fled Tskhinvali in early January 1991, after the arrival of the Georgian militia. With Tskhinvali essentially divided into a Georgian zone and an Ossetian zone, Georgians living on the Ossetian "side" were easy targets. Ossetian bands, consisting mainly of armed young men in civilian clothes, were reported to have repeatedly and systematically threatened Georgians (who frequently were their neighbors), beat them up, and looted their homes.

After the mass exodus of Georgians, Ossetian "guerrillas" robbed their homes bare; moreover, an estimated sixty-two Georgian homes were burned. Sometimes the burning of homes was purely gratuitous. On other occasions, the guerrillas targeted those Georgians they suspected of fraternizing with or billeting the Georgian militia.17

A South Ossetian guerilla readily admitted that fighters would "burn Georgian houses because the Georgian militia shot at Ossetians [from houses] in the back streets. We could burn the houses that Georgians had been shooting from." However, many of the burnings occurred after the Georgian militia withdrew, when the houses could no longer be considered military targets.18

A fifty-one-year-old woman told Helsinki Watch that she and her family left on January 7 because "the atmosphere was tense. There was shooting everywhere and we were afraid. There was no one to protect us." After she and her family left, the house was robbed. The May 27 burning of her house was broadcast on television on May 29. Notably, her son was in the Georgian militia.

A Georgian woman who remained in Tskhinvali after January 26 said that a rash of house burnings began then, and listed eleven addresses where houses had been burned during the night of January 26-27. She saw the remains of these houses, and suggested that they were acts of revenge for the mysterious burning of two Ossetian homes. She further suggested that the Ossetian guerrillas targeted homes of Georgians who had, for example, given the militia water or allowed the militia to use the bathroom.

One of the houses Ossetian paramilitaries raided and ransacked on the night of January 26 belonged to Natalia Saipina, a Russian schoolteacher married to a Georgian. Saipina went to both the local government and the USSR MVD troops for help, but they offered none:

When my house was robbed I went to the city executive committee. [Torez] Kulumbegov said he was helpless because the bandits were out of control, and couldn't promise anything. We asked the USSR MVD troops for help, but they refused. But they would help Ossetians. When we ask the soldiers to accompany us they refused and would give no guarantees. When my house was robbed, the man on duty at the garrison said, "You started this porridge, now eat it up!"

Saipina was interviewed in Moscow early in December. During Helsinki Watch's later visit to Tskhinvali, we inquired about Saipina's house. The head of the Information Committee of South Ossetia, Stanislav Kochiev, admitted openly that Ossetians had indeed burned down Saipina's house as an act of revenge: her son allegedly had killed an Ossetian in Eredvi.

The home of a middle-aged couple, whose son was reportedly in a paramilitary group based in Megvrekisi, was burned in the winter of 1991:

We lived on Ostrovkii Street. Previously we got along quite well with our neighbors, but then suddenly it was all changed. Our house was robbed several times before we left [on January 8]. After we left my eighty-year-old mother stayed. When they burned down the house the neighbors took her out. She was almost dead.

On January 27 at about 1 p.m. a gang of about thirty Ossetian youths set fire to the house of Guram Okroperidze. Okroperidze was about to sit down to lunch at the home of his neighbor, Giorgii Maskhelishvili, when they saw the house go up in flames. The armed youths attacked Maskhelishvili's house, shooting at the windows, and lobbing Molotov cocktails and grenades. Okreperidze later died as a result of injuries from grenade explosions.

Maskheleshvili told Helsinki Watch that about twenty armed youths stormed the house and severely beat him with rifle butts:

They demanded that I give them a gun, but I hadn't any gun; I'm a teacher. . . One of them bashed me over the head with a carbine so hard that I finally lost consciousness. I woke up in the hospital. I don't know how I got there.

Maskhelishvili, who was a witness at the trial of Torez Kulumbegov,19 had scars on the bridge of his nose and on his forehead, and a had a four-inch scar along his right arm. He spent three and a half months recovering in a Tbilisi hospital.20

Okroperidze was apparently singled out because he "gave cigarettes to the Georgian militia", who, according to his widow (whom Helsinki Watch interviewed separately, in Gori), were living in busses on their street. She said that they had been threatened repeatedly after the Georgian militia's arrival.

Another Georgian family who lived on the Ossetian side of Tskhinvali's barricades was twice threatened in their home on the 10th and 11th by heavily armed Ossetian youths. The youths screamed at her, "Why haven't you left yet? Don't you understand that this is not your land?" Their telephone line was mysteriously cut. The family fled the next day, and when they returned to Tskhinvali on January 14 they found their apartment had been totally looted and smashed up. There was no one to turn to for help, for "the local militia either wouldn't have come or would have done worse."

A 36-year-old woman was at her parents' house when she heard that her apartment had been broken into. She told Helsinki Watch that after she ran over and began to clean up the mess, eight armed men entered the apartment. They called her a "Georgian pig," and began punching and kicking her. They also beat her with "heavy sticks," and rifle butts. The beating damaged her kidneys and left bruises on her thighs, legs and upper body. They threatened her sexually, saying "You typical Georgian swine, you deserve to be raped." After she fled Tskhinvali her apartment was robbed. Mziia Makatsiriie told Helsinki Watch that after the militia's withdrawal Ossetian informals threatened her and her family many times. In February they broke her door down, shot off their guns, robbed the house, and threatened to kill her. She requested help from the city government, the local militia, and the Ossetian self-defense units. All promised that they would be protected. Despite these promises, her husband was murdered (under mysterious circumstances) on March 2. The local procuracy, she reported, did not investigate the case.

A 66-year-old woman told us that her son ran a co-op in Tskhinvali that sold fruit juice, cheese pies, and other snacks. In December 1990, her son received a rash of threats from Ossetian youths, who demanded money and broke the window panes. The co-op was burned down in January 1991. She and her family fled with few of their belongings, thinking they would soon return. After they left, however, their house was looted completely, and she claimed that Ossetians currently were living in it.

In some instances Ossetians helped protect their Georgian neighbors from attackers. A Georgian reported that his family's home was attacked on the night of January 9-10, 1991 by a gang of five young men, who attempted to break the door down:

The house was attacked on the night of January 9-10, 1991 by five men about twenty to twenty-one years of age. . . When I looked out the door, at about 11 p.m., I saw several of these armed boys, yelling at the house, calling us pigs and scoundrels, and saying that we should leave. They were knocking at the door, trying to break the door in.

The Ossetians who lived next door . . . made the men go away. They did not return that night but they did come back and repeat the same scene the next night. Then the Ossetian neighbor took an axe and threatened to kill them if they did not go away. The neighbor was in Ademon Nykhaz, but he still defended us.

The family fled two days later.

[pandukht]

Грузины нави соседи насколько мы зависим от них, настолько и они зависят от нас...

[utkarsh]

а какая телекомпания показала?

[Semetoja]

BBC1 :sharik:

[utkarsh]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2008/aug/1...ng.olympics2008

[Grig]

интересно , а Армения гуманитарную помощь окажет?

в принципе неплохая идея оказать гуманитарную помощь Грузии, например отдельным ее областям, таким как Джавахк B)

[Prankster]

Для комплексующих по поводу блокирования коммуникаций: они итак не работают.