Законопроект о Геноциде принят

[Луча]

Посмотрим, куда в дальнейшем такие принципы нас приведут.

Ужасно интересно :hm:

[Абрикос]

Не надо спешить с блогодарностьями , во франции многие видные дейтяли против этого закона и неизвестно чем всё это дело кончится. Постарайтесь не опережать события.

Это типа наша благодарность ценее того, что сделали французы ? :blink: А может все таки поблагодарим ? Как принято в нормальных обществах...

[Ardani]

Голосовалка на BBC

[utkarsh]

Такая же на LeMonde

[Круглий Атлицник]

Круглий Атлицник

мне уже не вкайф обьяснять тебе, что кроме войны и целованием взазос есть ещё очень много другиx способов удовлетворения желаний..

Постарайтесь думать немного и вне рамок 2x2.

[Круглий Атлицник]

Такая же на LeMonde

[Ardani]

Ардани, ок. озвучь свой план возврата земель.

Мягкий так сказать отъем.

Дашнаки вон тоже считали, комбинации 3*3 просчитывали, то время как нужно было вооружаться и концентрироваться.

[utkarsh]

Я французский не знаю, там расположение ответов одинаковое ?

[Udav]

надо дождать одобрения сената и подписи президента Ширака, тогда точно данный закон будет утвержден и вступит в силу с указанного срока.

а то сейчас дебаты ведутся а сенат или Ширак могут законопроект не одобрить.

[Круглий Атлицник]

Одно тебе скажу. Если даже поставишь всеx поголовно под ружьё и двинешься на юг, врядли что получится....

[Злодиюка]

лично для меня уже не важно, примут или нет

Минты счастья, когда у турков кое где очень сильно зудило меня удовлетворили.

Просто я понимаю, что существует много НО и ног всяких причин не принимать этот закон. Да и довление сильное. имею ввиду давление со сторне ЕС..

А может ошибаюсь.. короче посмотрим

[Ardani]

Круглий Атлицник

твоя беда и такиx как ты, это ваша попытка деления на теx кто армянин и не совсем..

Ты не сможешь быть больше армянином чем я, понимаешь? И если ты ждал, что я тебе по первому твоему запросу выложу детальный план по возвращению армянскиx земель, то извини ..

Насчёт же раскола.. я уже устал повторять. Сделай так, чтоб США признала факт Геноцида (без всякиx законов) , тогда уж Турция упадёт в осадок.

Сейчас пока не время такиx спорныx законов. Вот моя мысль. Странно, что ещё некоторые не поняли. Сегодня нам надо усилия направлять на дело Признания Геноцида как много большим количеством стран.

А законы, которые даже многими НЕ турками считаются спорными - больше вредят, чем приносят пользу. Они лишь доказывают версию турков, что процесс признания Геноцида лишь инструмент против Турции, а не историческая справедливость.. Чем больше не к месту будем кричать о Геноциде, тем больше обесценим себя и нашу трагедию.

Твоя проблема в том, что ты видишь только глянц. Бальзам. Какие же внутренние течения возникнут и куда они понесут, ты даже не пытаешься усмотреть.

И если ты встанешь у турецкого посольства и станешь кричать и забрасывать яйцами, то больше армянином, чем я всё равно не станешь..

[free]

Fears of Turkey's 'invisible' Armenians

By Sarah Rainsford

BBC News, Istanbul

The head of the Armenian Orthodox church is in the middle of a controversial visit to Istanbul. Karekin II has in the past angered Turks by accusing them of committing genocide against Armenians at the time of World War I. Turkey denies the charges of genocide.

Karekin II is in Istanbul for a seven day visit

I thought it was a perfectly simple question.

I had gone backstage to interview the conductor of an ethnic Armenian church choir after a rousing performance at Istanbul University.

As the choristers packed up their manuscripts, we chatted for a while about the music and the conductor was all smiles.

Then I asked his opinion on the conference his choir was singing at - the snappily labelled "Symposium on New Approaches to Turkish-Armenian relations".

I wondered if he thought the event could help mend fences. Within seconds, he was edging away from me, apparently deeply uncomfortable.

"I don't want to talk about politics," he pleaded, "we just came for the music!"

It was a telling insight.

Closed borders

Turkey and Armenia are neighbours who might as well be a million miles apart.

Diplomatic relations have been frozen for over a decade; their mutual border is closed.

They seem to have no idea there used to be hundreds of thousands of us here

Vartan, ethnic Armenian

Part of the reason is Turkey's support for the Azeris in their conflict with Armenia.

But the direct dispute is over a matter of history: The death of hundreds of thousands of Armenians in eastern Turkey during the dying days of the Ottoman empire.

Armenia wants those deaths recognised as genocide. Turkey refuses to accept that term.

For Armenia and its vast and powerful diaspora, getting recognition from Ankara is a mission so important, it is almost a way of life. But here inside Turkey, ethnic Armenians have chosen an uncomfortable silence over confrontation.

I visited Anush and her brother Vartan in a leafy middle class suburb of Istanbul.

Their apartment was typical of the area, but with the odd design twists, like knotted dried flowers on the table that reminded me of my trips to the Caucasus.

"Turks still ask me where I come from," Vartan told me, as his sister brought in the tea. "They seem to have no idea there used to be hundreds of thousands of us here."

Uneasy existence

Anush and Vartan are just two of some 60,000 ethnic Armenians who still live in Turkey - a land their ancestors have inhabited for almost 2,000 years. It is an uneasy co-existence.

"We've lived with violence ever since I was born," Anush told me. "Graffiti on our churches, abuse on the streets. I still think twice in some areas before I say my name openly."

Armenia wants Turkey to admit the mass killings amounted to genocide

For previous generations life was even tougher.

Anush's parents barely speak Armenian, because their parents worried they would stand out and when Armenian militants began assassinating Turkish diplomats in the 1970s, Turkish Armenian families here made themselves more invisible still.

It is hardly surprising they do not normally voice an opinion on what happened in 1915.

Anush and Vartan are a rare exception and, even so, I have had to change their names.

We know exactly what happened, Vartan told me.

He said his Armenian great grandparents were forcibly deported south, accused of siding with Russian troops against the Turks. They handed their children over to Turkish neighbours for safety and never returned.

There is a similar tragedy behind every Armenian door here, but the local patriarch has banned his community from discussing it - if they want to keep their jobs in Armenian churches and schools.

"It's fear," Anush told me simply.

There have been some early signs of change here. Last year a university in Istanbul hosted the first discussion of the genocide claims in Turkey ever to question the official line. It was hugely controversial but it happened.

And now international pressure on Ankara to re-examine its position is increasing.

Vartan welcomes that but he senses a rise in aggressive, nationalist feeling in Turkey in response.

"If other countries force this issue, it will be terrible for the Armenian people here," Vartan told me quietly.

"If you plunge a man into boiling water, he will burn," he said, "but if you increase the heat gently, he could get used to it."

'Pseudo-citizens'

Unlike the Kurds, Turkey's Armenian population is an officially recognised minority with certain rights and privileges.

But despite that - and despite their silence - Turkish Armenians seem like pseudo-citizens.

I began to understand the price people like that choirmaster pay to live in peace in Turkey

Anush told me that in one school text book Armenians are still described as separatists with an eye on Turkish land. History books carry the official view of 1915, of course, with the Armenians exiled as traitors.

And even now, in Armenian schools here, ethnic Armenians are banned from teaching certain "strategic" subjects - geography, sociology, morality, history.

As we talked into the warm evening, and glasses of tea gave way to Armenian cognac, I began to understand the price people like that choir master pay to live in peace in Turkey.

To many Armenians abroad their silence is a sort of treachery. For Anush, Vartan and the others it is about protecting a fragile peace.

But it is all built on the shakiest of foundations.

"I am positive. I do have hopes for Turkey," Anush told me as I put on my shoes to go.

"But I don't remember ever feeling truly comfortable living here. Always at the back of my mind is the thought that one day I may be forced to leave."

From Our Own Correspondent was broadcast on Thursday, 22 June, 2006 at 1100 BST on BBC Radio 4. Please check the programme schedules for World Service transmission times.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/from...ent/5102564.stm

[utkarsh]

Самое интересное, что такие закомплексованные люди как Круглий и иже с ним, сами обвиняют оппонентов в закомплексованности и страxе...

[free]

France acts to outlaw denial of genocide

By Thomas Crampton International Herald Tribune

Published: October 12, 2006

PARIS The National Assembly, defying appeals from Turkey, approved legislation Thursday that would make it a crime to deny that mass killings of Armenians in Turkey during and after World War I were genocide.

Denounced by Ankara and criticized by the European Union, the legislation could further complicate talks for Turkey's admission to the EU.

Of the 577 members of the Assembly, 106 deputies voted in favor and 19 against, while 4 abstained and 448 did not vote at all, raising the question of whether there will be enough political will to push the legislation through the Senate. If it is to become law, the Senate must also approve the measure.

The law would set fines of as much as €45,000, or about $56,000, and a year in prison for denying that the killing of Armenians by Ottoman Turks was genocide.

In 2001, France formally recognized as genocide the killings of as many as 1.5 million Armenians from 1915 to 1919.

Turkey denies allegations of genocide, disputing the number of deaths and premeditation in the killings, saying that tens of thousands of Armenians and Turks were killed in chaotic civil unrest after Armenian groups supported Russia during the war.

"The Turkish people refuse the limitation of freedom of expression on the basis of groundless claims," the Turkish Foreign Ministry said in a statement. "With this draft law, France unfortunately loses its privileged status in the eyes of Turkish public opinion."

Ali Babacan, Turkey's economics minister who also heads Ankara's talks with the EU, said he could not rule out consequences for French companies.

"What happened in France today we believe is not in line with the core values of the European Union," Babacan said, adding that the government would not encourage a boycott of French goods. "As the government of Turkey, we are not encouraging something like that. But this is the people's decision."

In Brussels, the European Union warned that the law could harm efforts at reconciliation over the killings.

"It would prohibit dialogue which is necessary for reconciliation on the issue," said an EU spokeswoman, Krisztina Nagy. "It is not up to law to write history. Historians need to have debate."

After the vote, the government of President Jacques Chirac, which did not support the law, expressed eagerness for dialogue with Turkey and said the legislation was unnecessary and inopportune.

"We are very committed to dialogue with Turkey, as well as to the strong ties of friendship and cooperation which link us to that country," said Jean-Baptiste Mattei, a spokesman for the French Foreign Ministry.

The Armenian issue has complicated the country's bid for EU membership. Chirac and the two leading contenders to replace him in elections next May - Nicolas Sarkozy, the conservative interior minister, and Ségolène Royal, a Socialist - all say Ankara must acknowledge the genocide before gaining EU membership.

Can Baydarol, a Turkish analyst of the EU, said that although the decision of Parliament seemed to have no direct effect on relations with the bloc, the hostile attitude of France demonstrated the obstacles to full membership if a consensus among EU members is necessary for a final decision on Turkey.

"Now people see that more than the technical details, political maneuvers will mark the years-long process on way to full membership," Baydarol said. "I think, at a public level, not the EU but France is going to pay the price of this decision."

Meanwhile, officials in Azerbaijan, which has close cultural and economic ties with Turkey, denounced the vote.

"The discussion of the bill is absurd and the presentation of the issue is illogical," Deputy Foreign Minister Khalaf Khalafov said at a news conference, according to Interfax. "The adoption of the bill contradicts basic human rights and freedoms because people have a right to freedom of thought and freedom of obtaining information, and the bill may violate and limit the freedom of thought."

Azerbaijan fought a war in the early 1990s with Armenia over possession of Nagorno-Karabakh, a mountainous region inside its internationally recognized borders that both nations claim.

The French legislators voted against a backdrop of political jousting before presidential elections next spring, with politicians in both major camps split on the wisdom of the genocide bill, but all aware that the issue of Turkey's potential entry into the EU is political dynamite.

Two prominent national newspapers, Le Monde and Le Figaro, opposed the law. Le Monde said that while denying the genocide of Jews in Germany amounts to anti-Semitism and is worthy of criminal prosecution, arguments over the Armenian genocide should be resolved through diplomatic means.

Although most of France's top politicians, from Chirac on down, supported the EU's planned constitution, the French rejected it last year in a referendum that was also seen as a vote against further EU expansion. The problem for politicians seeking to succeed Chirac is how to oppose Turkish entry without taking on the xenophobic tones of the far-right.

Royal, the leading Socialist presidential contender, said Wednesday that Turkey "obviously" would have to "recognize the Armenian genocide" if it wished to enter the EU, adding: "My opinion is that of the French people." She supported the genocide bill.

But two other senior Socialists, Dominique Strauss-Kahn and Jack Lang, had reservations about the bill, which raises questions of freedom of speech in the same way as France's legislation making denial of the Holocaust a crime.

On the center-right, Sarkozy is against Turkish EU entry but kept silent about the Socialist-sponsored genocide bill. His aides were split, with François Fillon against it but Patrick Devedjian, who is of Armenian descent, strongly backing it, according to Le Figaro.

With roughly 500,000 citizens claiming Armenian origin, France has one of Europe's largest Armenian populations.

Prominent French people of Armenian descent include the singer Charles Aznavour, the former prime minister Édouard Balladur and the chief executive officer of the telecommunications company Alcatel, Serge Tchuruk.

"Today we took another very important further step to fight against those who deny the Armenian genocide," said Harout Mardirossian, spokesman for the Coordination Council for Armenian Organizations in France. "Armenians have fought long and hard for this law in France." Mardirossian emphasized that the law should not be taken as anti- Turkish.

"This law is not intended to be against Turkey, but against extremists in all countries, including Turkey," Mardirossian said. "We now have a tool to use against those who deny Armenian genocide, just like the law against denying the genocide in Germany."

His organization has filed three lawsuits in recent years against people denying the Armenian genocide. Successful suits included those against a historian, Bernard Lewis, and an encyclopedia, Quid, while a suit against a Turkish Embassy Web site failed due to diplomatic protections, Mardirossian said.

Sebnem Arsu and C.J. Chivers of The New York Times contributed reporting from Istanbul and Moscow.

PARIS The National Assembly, defying appeals from Turkey, approved legislation Thursday that would make it a crime to deny that mass killings of Armenians in Turkey during and after World War I were genocide.

Denounced by Ankara and criticized by the European Union, the legislation could further complicate talks for Turkey's admission to the EU.

Of the 577 members of the Assembly, 106 deputies voted in favor and 19 against, while 4 abstained and 448 did not vote at all, raising the question of whether there will be enough political will to push the legislation through the Senate. If it is to become law, the Senate must also approve the measure.

The law would set fines of as much as €45,000, or about $56,000, and a year in prison for denying that the killing of Armenians by Ottoman Turks was genocide.

In 2001, France formally recognized as genocide the killings of as many as 1.5 million Armenians from 1915 to 1919.

Turkey denies allegations of genocide, disputing the number of deaths and premeditation in the killings, saying that tens of thousands of Armenians and Turks were killed in chaotic civil unrest after Armenian groups supported Russia during the war.

"The Turkish people refuse the limitation of freedom of expression on the basis of groundless claims," the Turkish Foreign Ministry said in a statement. "With this draft law, France unfortunately loses its privileged status in the eyes of Turkish public opinion."

Ali Babacan, Turkey's economics minister who also heads Ankara's talks with the EU, said he could not rule out consequences for French companies.

"What happened in France today we believe is not in line with the core values of the European Union," Babacan said, adding that the government would not encourage a boycott of French goods. "As the government of Turkey, we are not encouraging something like that. But this is the people's decision."

In Brussels, the European Union warned that the law could harm efforts at reconciliation over the killings.

"It would prohibit dialogue which is necessary for reconciliation on the issue," said an EU spokeswoman, Krisztina Nagy. "It is not up to law to write history. Historians need to have debate."

After the vote, the government of President Jacques Chirac, which did not support the law, expressed eagerness for dialogue with Turkey and said the legislation was unnecessary and inopportune.

"We are very committed to dialogue with Turkey, as well as to the strong ties of friendship and cooperation which link us to that country," said Jean-Baptiste Mattei, a spokesman for the French Foreign Ministry.

The Armenian issue has complicated the country's bid for EU membership. Chirac and the two leading contenders to replace him in elections next May - Nicolas Sarkozy, the conservative interior minister, and Ségolène Royal, a Socialist - all say Ankara must acknowledge the genocide before gaining EU membership.

Can Baydarol, a Turkish analyst of the EU, said that although the decision of Parliament seemed to have no direct effect on relations with the bloc, the hostile attitude of France demonstrated the obstacles to full membership if a consensus among EU members is necessary for a final decision on Turkey.

"Now people see that more than the technical details, political maneuvers will mark the years-long process on way to full membership," Baydarol said. "I think, at a public level, not the EU but France is going to pay the price of this decision."

Meanwhile, officials in Azerbaijan, which has close cultural and economic ties with Turkey, denounced the vote.

"The discussion of the bill is absurd and the presentation of the issue is illogical," Deputy Foreign Minister Khalaf Khalafov said at a news conference, according to Interfax. "The adoption of the bill contradicts basic human rights and freedoms because people have a right to freedom of thought and freedom of obtaining information, and the bill may violate and limit the freedom of thought."

Azerbaijan fought a war in the early 1990s with Armenia over possession of Nagorno-Karabakh, a mountainous region inside its internationally recognized borders that both nations claim.

The French legislators voted against a backdrop of political jousting before presidential elections next spring, with politicians in both major camps split on the wisdom of the genocide bill, but all aware that the issue of Turkey's potential entry into the EU is political dynamite.

Two prominent national newspapers, Le Monde and Le Figaro, opposed the law. Le Monde said that while denying the genocide of Jews in Germany amounts to anti-Semitism and is worthy of criminal prosecution, arguments over the Armenian genocide should be resolved through diplomatic means.

Although most of France's top politicians, from Chirac on down, supported the EU's planned constitution, the French rejected it last year in a referendum that was also seen as a vote against further EU expansion. The problem for politicians seeking to succeed Chirac is how to oppose Turkish entry without taking on the xenophobic tones of the far-right.

Royal, the leading Socialist presidential contender, said Wednesday that Turkey "obviously" would have to "recognize the Armenian genocide" if it wished to enter the EU, adding: "My opinion is that of the French people." She supported the genocide bill.

But two other senior Socialists, Dominique Strauss-Kahn and Jack Lang, had reservations about the bill, which raises questions of freedom of speech in the same way as France's legislation making denial of the Holocaust a crime.

On the center-right, Sarkozy is against Turkish EU entry but kept silent about the Socialist-sponsored genocide bill. His aides were split, with François Fillon against it but Patrick Devedjian, who is of Armenian descent, strongly backing it, according to Le Figaro.

With roughly 500,000 citizens claiming Armenian origin, France has one of Europe's largest Armenian populations.

Prominent French people of Armenian descent include the singer Charles Aznavour, the former prime minister Édouard Balladur and the chief executive officer of the telecommunications company Alcatel, Serge Tchuruk.

"Today we took another very important further step to fight against those who deny the Armenian genocide," said Harout Mardirossian, spokesman for the Coordination Council for Armenian Organizations in France. "Armenians have fought long and hard for this law in France." Mardirossian emphasized that the law should not be taken as anti- Turkish.

"This law is not intended to be against Turkey, but against extremists in all countries, including Turkey," Mardirossian said. "We now have a tool to use against those who deny Armenian genocide, just like the law against denying the genocide in Germany."

His organization has filed three lawsuits in recent years against people denying the Armenian genocide. Successful suits included those against a historian, Bernard Lewis, and an encyclopedia, Quid, while a suit against a Turkish Embassy Web site failed due to diplomatic protections, Mardirossian said.

Sebnem Arsu and C.J. Chivers of The New York Times contributed reporting from Istanbul and Moscow.

http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/10/12/news/france.php