Армения-Турция

[Sari Galin]

Businessmen press for opening of border after historic visit

Turkish and Armenian businessmen are hopeful that a historic visit by President Abdullah Gül to neighboring Armenia last weekend could bring economic benefits for both countries if the positive political atmosphere is followed by a reopening of the border, which has been closed since 1993.

Kaan Soyak, co-chairman of the Turkish-Armenian Business Development Council, says Turkish and Armenian businessmen could set up an industrial zone in Turkey if the border is opened. According to Arsen Ghazaryan, the Armenian co-chairman of the council, the opening of the gate will boost tourism revenue for residents of the border provinces in eastern Turkey.

Turkey closed its border with landlocked Armenia in 1993 in protest of Armenian occupation of a chunk of Azerbaijani territory in a dispute over Nagorno-Karabakh. Ankara says ties will not be normalized unless Armenia withdraws from Azerbaijani territory, stops backing its diaspora's efforts to win international recognition for claims that 1.5 million Armenians were victims of genocide at the hands of the Ottoman Empire and formally recognizes the current border with Turkey.

President Gül broke the ice on Saturday when he visited Yerevan, becoming the first Turkish president to set foot in Armenia since it declared independence from the Soviet Union, to watch a World Cup qualifying match between the national soccer teams of the two countries. Gül said the border issue was not on the agenda of his meeting with his Armenian counterpart, Serzh Sarksyan, but the two countries are expected to hold further talks to discuss how to normalize ties.

"The progress achieved in Gül's visit should be taken further. We should take steps to ensure the free movement of goods in the Caucasus," Soyak told Today's Zaman. He said a closed railway link between Turkey and Armenia should be opened immediately, emphasizing that the railway has the capacity to transfer 10 million tons of goods annually.

Ghazaryan said textile and tourism were the two sectors in which Turkish-Armenian business cooperation could start immediately. "Armenia's potential is not confined to its population of 3.5 million. Armenians from all over the world, from Canada to Brazil, from South Africa to Qatar, come to Armenia every year," he said. "The immediate effect of the opening of the border gate would be a boom in tourism in eastern Anatolia because diaspora Armenians coming to Armenia want to see the Anatolia."

Soyak said approximately 200,000 diaspora Armenians visit Armenia every year. "These people have roots in Anatolia. If they each stay for three days in Turkey and spend $100 a day, this would mean $60 million in tourism revenue for eastern Anatolia. It's not big money for İstanbul, but hotels in eastern Anatolia will enjoy a boom in income," Soyak said.

Ghazaryan is also optimistic that Turkish businessmen will be able to operate freely in Armenia despite concerns over public misgivings against the Turks. "Turkish businessmen have already been operating successfully in Armenia for 15 years," he said.

Ghazaryan is also hopeful that Saturday's soccer game opened a new era in Turkish-Armenian ties. He said there has been a change of thinking among Turkish politicians towards Armenia in recent years. "We have to live together in this region and build a common future," he said.

Gül to visit Azerbaijan on fence-mending mission after trip to Yerevan

President Abdullah Gül will visit regional ally Azerbaijan on Wednesday, days after he became the first Turkish president, since Armenian independence from the USSR, to visit Armenia, which is currently occupying a part of Azerbaijan.

The Azerbaijani government has refrained from publicly criticizing the visit, and Turkish officials said Baku has raised no objection to Gül's visit on Saturday. But newspapers and politicians have said Gül's visit could undermine the alliance between Turkey and Azerbaijan.

Turkey wants Azerbaijan and Armenia to join a Caucasus Stability and Cooperation Platform, a scheme it proposed after a brief Georgian-Russian war last month after Georgia launched a military offensive into the breakaway region of South Ossetia. Gül will meet with Azerbaijani President Ilham Aliyev during his one-day visit.

Gül's visit to Armenia raised the hopes of a breakthrough in relations between the two estranged neighbors, but the two countries face the daunting task of normalizing ties despite complicated problems.

Gül is expected to once again meet with his Armenian counterpart, Serzh Sarksyan, in New York on the sidelines of the UN General Assembly next month. Foreign Ministers Ali Babacan and Eduard Nalbandian will also have talks during the UN gathering. Talks between the two sides on how to normalize ties are expected to gain momentum after the New York meetings.

Despite Armenian wishes for an immediate opening of the border with Turkey, closed since 1993, Ankara is cautious, saying progress will depend on Armenian steps for reconciliation in a territorial dispute with Azerbaijan over Nagorno-Karabakh. Ankara severed its diplomatic relations and closed the border with Armenia after Azerbaijan occupied a part of Azerbaijani territory.

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[Sari Galin]

Fatih Cekirge: A signal for a new Nogorno-Karabakh map during Armenia visit

Following a history packed with murders, assassinations, attacks, hate, closed borders, invasions, and claims of genocide... This was the first time that a president of the Turkish Republic has paid a visit to Armenia. Since this was a historic visit, I allocate my entire column to this visit I paid together with President Abdullah Gul.

This was the atmosphere just after the match... The two presidents are having a conversation, and we are listening to them. Jokes are being made. The Armenians had prepared a very nice open buffet. There was no sign of victory or defeat on their faces. Gul turns to Sargsyan and says:

-I will visit Azerbaijan after my visit here. I hope positive developments will emerge...

Sargsyan replies:

- Of course... We are ready.

This is very important because Sargsyan clearly states, “We want the borders open with Turkey. We want a solution to problems."

What I understand from these remarks are:

1- A new period can start between Azerbaijan and Armenia after this visit. The foreign ministers have already met but this period will mostly be a solution period... Turkey will take on a mediator role. Gul's saying that he would visit the Armenian president shows that such an attempt is being undertaken by both presidents.

2- The technical issues were not debated during this visit, but a new map for Nagorno-Karabakh can be brought to the table in the future...Gul's visit to Baku is a sign of this.

3- I had the opportunity to have a brief conversation with the Armenian president. I noticed that he was really sincere and desires a solution. He has a positive disposition.

4- We realized while in the country that Gul's visit to Yerevan was the best possible decision. With good risk management, new doors for the Caucasus can be opened as a result of this visit.

NO MENTION OF SO-CALLED GENOCIDE

The atmosphere of elation on the plane on the way to home after Turkey beat Armenia 2-0 was greater than the jubilance of victory in the match. That is because the approximately 12-hour long visit transformed tension into success. And this was clearly written all over Gul's face.

It was worth taking the risk...

Here are some of important remarks Gul made on the return journey from Yeravan to Ankara:

-They never mentioned the so-called genocide issue. Leaving that aside, they did not even imply it or mention it indirectly. They might have even hinted at it, but they did not.

- We saw that they were as unbiased as us...

-An atmosphere has been created which would allow all the issues to be addressed one by one

-They spoke very comprehensively of the Nagorno-Karabakh issue.

-The Azeri and Armenian presidents can come together in the future. I will pay a visit to Azerbaijan in the coming days.

-The visit was certainly risky. We could have announced it one week earlier, but certain preparations had to be made for security reasons.

- What would happen had we not paid this visit? There would be no result. The price we pay would continue to grow had no action been taken.

- In fact, the invitation to the match sent the ball into our field. This visit sent the ball back into their field.

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[Sari Galin]

Turkey and Armenia decided to improve relations, including raising the level of regular consulting mechanism to foreign ministers, speeding up efforts to form a joint commission and opening the border for humanitarian aid. (UPDATED)

Turkish President Abdullah Gul paid a landmark visit to Yerevan after Armenian President Serzh Sargsyan invited him to watch a 2010 World Cup qualifying match between the two countries' national teams.

The visit was hailed as a step towards the normalization of relations between the two neighbors, who do not have any diplomatic relations because of Armenia's invasion of Azerbaijan.

The two leaders decided to improve diplomatic ties at the meetings held in Yerevan, Hurriyet daily reported on Sunday.

The regular consulting mechanism between Turkey and Armenia will be improved and these negotiations will be raised to the foreign ministers level, the report said adding that presidents of both countries will meet again at United Nation's summit scheduled for the end of September.

The report also said the efforts to establish a joint commission for resolving the so-called genocide claims would be sped up and a separate commission would be formed to address the economic field.

In 2005, Turkish Prime Minister Tayyip Erdogan took a first step towards resolving the issue by proposing that a joint commission of historians launch an investigation and publish their conclusions, but the proposal was rejected by Yerevan.

Armenia, with the backing of the diaspora, claims up to 1.5 million of their kin were slaughtered in orchestrated killings in 1915. Turkey rejects the claims, saying that 300,000 Armenians along with at least as many Turks died in civil strife that emerged when Armenians took up arms for independence in eastern Anatolia.

HUMANITARIAN AID TO ARMENIA

The closed border between two countries could also be opened for humanitarian aid purpose depending on the gestures from Armenian side and the direction of the relations, Hurriyet said citing diplomatic sources.

The border has been closed since 1993, when Turkey protested Armenia's occupation of the Nagorno-Karabakh region of Azerbaijan, a close Turkish ally.

Turkish president also said the visit showed a will to set up an atmosphere to eliminate the problems between Turkey and Armenia adding that he hoped that his visit would be a start to solving the problems and raising the obstacles that exist between the two countries.

Gul added that he thanked Sargsyan for extending his support to Turkey's Caucasus Stability and Cooperation Platform proposal.

The Armenian president also thanked Gul for accepting his invitation to Yerevan and said that the Turkish president had invited him to watch the Turkey-Armenia match to be played in Istanbul.

Turkey is among the first countries that recognized Armenia when it declared its independency in the early 1990s.

However there is no diplomatic relations between two countries, as Armenia presses the international community to admit the so-called "genocide" claims instead of accepting Turkey's call to investigate the allegations, and its invasion of 20 percent of Azerbaijani territory despite U.N. Security Council resolutions on the issue.

GUL RETURNS POSITIVE

"I believe that my visit was fruitful and that it promises hope for the future," Gul said after returning to Ankara, adding that he had a constructive and sincere" meeting with Sargsyan.

He said he had won Yerevan's support for a new regional grouping in the Caucasus following last month’s conflict between Georgia and Russia.

"We were pleased with Armenia's announcement that it supports Turkey's proposal of a 'Caucasus Stability and Cooperation Platform'," Gul said adding that there was a ball in their court and this ball should not have remained in their court.

"The most important issue in the Caucasus is the Karabagh issue. My visit to Yerevan may contribute to the solution of this problem," Gul added.

But Gul said that neither the dispute nor the closed border between the two neighbors figured in his meeting with Armenian President Serzh Sargsyan.

"He did not mention, or even imply at, the so-called genocide claims," Gul was quoted as saying by the Anatolian Agency said.

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[Sari Galin]

A win-win match ends in Yerevan

President Abdullah Gül's historical visit to the Armenian capital raises hopes of normalization between the two neighbors. Armenian President Serzh Sarkisian says they have no intention to pass the problems to the next generation, as Gül speaks of demolishing psychological barriers

Vercihan Ziflioğlu

YEREVAN- Turkish Daily News

The first-ever visit of a Turkish leader to Yerevan on the sidelines of the first football match between Turkey-Armenia's national teams raised hopes for normalization of relations.

I believe my visit has demolished a psychological barrier in the Caucasus," Gül was reported telling journalists on his plane while returning from his trip to Yervan late Saturday.

Gül raised hopes for a long-awaited rapprochment between the two neigbors saying if this climate continues everything will move forward and normalize. Sarkisian also expressed his optimism for resolving the problems and not leaving them in the hands of the next generation.

Before the historic match, President Abdullah Gül held talks with his counterpart Serzh Sarkisian at the presidential palace, where the support of Yerevan for Ankara's initiative on a Caucasus stability and cooperation platform was secured. Sarkisian, did not talk about genocide claims but raised the dispute over Nagorno-Karabakh, an Azerbaijani territory occupied by Armenia. Even though Turkey was one of the first countries to recognize Armenia when it gained independence in 1991, Ankara has refused to establish diplomatic ties on account of Yerevan's campaign to have the events of 1915-1917 recognized as genocide. In 1993, Turkey shut its border with Armenia in a show of solidarity with its close ally Azerbaijan.

Ankara emerging as signifiant actor for Nagorno-Karabakh

He did not mention, or even imply the genocide claims but he broached the subject on Nagorno-Karabakh, which frankly I thought he would abstain from. He had a lengthy elaboration on the issue, even expressing his will for Turkey to mediate the tensions with Azerbaijan, Gül was quoted saying by daily Yeni Şafak's columnist Ali Bayramoğlu Sunday.

Gül identified the Nagorno-Karabakh conflict as the most important issue of the Caucasus. Baku and Yerevan have been directly negotiating to resolve the long-lasting problem at the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe's Minsk Group. Terms for Armenia's withdrawal remains a key issue, while experts think Turkey may get the upperhand in those negotiations by displaying a positive approach for the opening of the sealed border with Armenia, the country's only gateway to European markets. Although the trip raised expectations for Ankara to take steps to easing the current border regime, Gül said it was not realistic to anticipate such results from the first meeting.

Gül's trip was welcomed as a courageous and historic by the French President Nicholas Sarkozy, who holds the six-month rotating presidency of the European Union, or EU.

President Gül said the decision to go to Yerevan was taken a long time ago, however was not expounded until two days before the match due to security preparations and praised Armenia's cooperation.

We did not go to Yerevan with our eyes shut. I had my own car, we had all required logistics and technology and Turkish special forces accompanied me, Gül said.

Gestures exchanged, challenges intercepted

Symbolic gestures from both sides during the half-day visit were worth noting, starting with Gül's decision to abstain from fasting for a day and attend a dinner organized by Sarkisian. During the dinner, famous Armenian singer Djivan Gasparian sang the song Blonde bride, which has both Turkish and Armenian lyrics. The Turkish Republic airplane carrying Gül and his delegation used the direct air corridor between Ankara and Yerevan for the first time for the outgoing and return flights which lasted nearly 1 hour and 20 minutes.

President Gül also invited his Armenian counterpart Sarkisian to attend a return football match between two national teams in Turkey on Oct. 14.

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[Sari Galin]

A kick-off for peace?

by

VARTAN OSKANIAN

Armenian President Serzh Sarksyan’s recent invitation to Turkish President Abdullah Gül to visit Yerevan to watch a football match together was historic.

Given the two countries’ long-strained relations, this visit would have been remarkable at any time. But coming as it does only one month after the alarming Russian-Georgian confrontation, it may offer real hope that tensions in the volatile Caucasus region can be eased.

Of course, ancient and difficult issues divide Armenia and Turkey. But now is the moment for both countries to put the past aside in order to address their common security concerns. In the new context set by the war in Georgia, the urgency of Turkey becoming a real bridge between the nations of the Caucasus is not lost on anyone.

This expectation is an inevitable consequence of Turkey’s geography and history. Situated figuratively between modernity and tradition, secularism and Islam, and democracy and tyranny, Turkey also is an actual physical bridge between East and West. For the peoples of the Caucasus, Turkey marks our path to Europe. It is a NATO member, bordering the three Caucasus republics that have NATO Individual Partnership Action Programs. It aspires to join the European Union, and would bring the EU to our three borders, even as we, too, aspire to join one day.

Indeed, Turkey has never missed an opportunity to present itself as a regional broker. Immediately after the collapse of the Soviet Union, Turkey proposed the Black Sea Economic Cooperation. This year, as the American-led effort to mediate a Middle East peace settlement began to falter, Turkey took up the job of mediator in both the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and the conflict between Syria and Israel. Now, in the immediate wake of the Russia-Georgia crisis, Turkey’s leaders have stepped forward once again to take a leadership role in the Caucasus.

The world must fervently hope that the Turkish proposal for a Caucasus Stability and Cooperation Platform is more serious and sustained than previous similar efforts. But, in order to succeed, Turkey must firmly pursue a pledge from all the region’s players to repudiate the use of force in settling their disputes. If this pledge is adopted and respected, conflicts in the region will be viewed in a wholly different, more tolerant context, marking a historic breakthrough to peace.

In fact, why not take the idea of such a pact one step further? We in this region can, and I believe should, call for a non-aligned Caucasus, free of security blocs and adversarial alliances. After all, security alliances and guarantees only create dividing lines, with their attendant security challenges.

Our countries and peoples have, throughout history, lived under a common umbrella for far longer than we have been divided. Today, we share a common vision of European integration, and it is in this broader context that our conflicts should be resolved. French President Nicolas Sarkozy and German Chancellor Angela Merkel’s visits to Georgia and Russia proved that there is no substitute for Europe insofar as the Caucasus is concerned. Only Europe can play the role of honest broker in the region’s atmosphere of suspicion and intolerance.

But, at the end of the day, we ourselves must be willing to work toward a region of peace and cooperation. The Caucasus is too small a space for closed borders and explosive conflicts. Although some of those tensions appear purely bilateral, the Georgian-Russian conflict demonstrates that there is no such thing anymore in this globalized world, and certainly not in this interconnected region.

In fact, real peace in the Caucasus requires two key strategic transformations. One is a lesson from history: Russia’s strategic interests here cannot be ignored. To believe and behave otherwise would lead to regional chaos. The other lesson is that Turkey and Armenia cannot remain adversaries forever. There must be normalization in our relations in order for the Caucasus to coalesce into a functional region.

Ironically, both Russia and the United States recognize that this is in their interest. The Russians view normal relations between Turkey and Armenia as a way to minimize Georgia’s strategic role in the region. The US views an opening to Turkey as a way to decrease Armenia’s real and imagined reliance on Russia.

Beyond the emotional impact of President Gül’s visit to Yerevan, real improvement in Turkish-Armenian relations requires opening the two countries’ closed border -- the last in Europe. Or, for a start, the existing railroad link between the two countries could be made operational. If this does not happen within the coming weeks and months, then Turkey will have demonstrated that all this was just a show.

President Gül’s visit does mark a watershed -- either as a failure to make history, or as the beginning of a new era.

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[SAMIR_BAKU]

Нет всё с точностью наоборот Кайваз Армения как всегда оказывается в том месте где нужно .

[Sari Galin]

Новая геополитическая игра на Южном Кавказе

В турецкой "Платформе стабильности и сотрудничества" ясны не все цели участников

Главный итог визита в субботу президента Турции Абдуллы Гюля в Ереван – договоренность с армянским коллегой Сержем Саргсяном продолжить диалог. В ходе встречи армянский лидер высоко оценил предложение Анкары по созданию «Платформы стабильности и сотрудничества на Кавказе» (ПССК). Эта инициатива обсуждалась в воскресенье в Москве главами МИД России и Азербайджана Сергеем Лавровым и Эльмаром Мамедъяровым.

Азербайджанский политолог Расим Мусабеков предложение Анкары по созданию ПССК – структуры, похожей на ОБСЕ, называет вполне закономерным. «События в Грузии со всей очевидностью продемонстрировали огромные угрозы для Южного Кавказа, способного стать полем битвы между Западом и Россией, что ничего хорошего региону не сулит. Турция – член НАТО и будет нести все риски, ей есть что терять, и она прилагает все усилия для разрядки», – сказал «НГ» Мусабеков. По его словам, ситуация на Южном Кавказе близка к драматической: помимо грузинских конфликтов, большим кровопролитием чревато возобновление карабахского конфликта не меньше отравляют атмосферу неурегулированные армяно-турецкие отношения. «Россия подталкивает Армению к действиям, которые могут понизить температуру в регионе. С другой стороны, события в Грузии показали, как легко Армению изолировать от внешнего мира, при том что другой ее сосед – Иран – в своей политике нестабилен. Таким образом, нормализация отношений с Анкарой становится для Еревана приоритетной задачей», – заявил «НГ» профессор Мусабеков. Это, по его мнению, отвечает и российским интересам в регионе – Москва и Ереван коммуникационно оказались отрезанными друг от друга. В этом свете стоит ожидать, что Россия может начать продвижение хотя бы частичного решения карабахской проблемы: добиваться силой от Баку пути в Армению Москва не будет, а попытаться договориться можно. «Россию вряд ли устраивает имидж, сложившийся на мировой арене после войны в Грузии, и она может его подправить действиями в карабахском или приднестровском направлении», – сказал «НГ» профессор Мусабеков.

По мнению руководителя Центра по глобализации и региональному сотрудничеству Степана Григоряна, нормализация турецко-армянских отношений соответствует интересам Еревана настолько, насколько интересам Анкары и даже Баку. «Война в Грузии продемонстрировала хрупкость связей Еревана с миром и одновременно слабость ставки только на одну транзитную страну: все проекты – энергетические и транспортные – остановились. Если же в них участвовала бы и Армения, скажем, экспорт углеводородов на Запад не прекратился бы ни на минуту», – считает Григорян. По его мнению, визит Абдуллы Гюля в Ереван стал огромным шагом в психологическом плане. Практическим же подкреплением нормализации отношений может стать скорое открытие границы, закрытой Анкарой 15 лет назад. «А уже после этого, думается, через Армению в Турцию могут быть построены небольшие страховочные ответвления транзитных газо- и нефтепроводов», – заявил Григорян «НГ», подчеркнув, что такая перспектива вполне отвечает задачам ПССК.

Доктор политологии из Берлина Ашот Манучарян считает, что идея Турции по созданию ПССК, поддержанная Арменией, призвана, с одной стороны, нейтрализовать российскую военную политику, а с другой – усилить позиции Турции. «Начинается геополитическая игра, в которой ясны не все цели ее участников. Война в Грузии, признание Россией Абхазии, Южной Осетии, симптомы нормализации армяно-турецких отношений встревожили Баку по карабахскому вопросу. Этим обусловлен его фактический отказ открыто приветствовать политику США в Грузии, что проявилось в ходе недавнего визита вице-президента Дика Чейни в Баку, и блиц-визит главы МИДа Мамедъярова в Москву для обсуждения с коллегой Лавровым турецкой платформы безопасности и ситуации на Южном Кавказе в целом», – заявил эксперт «НГ». Вместе с этим он скептически оценивает возможности практической реализации ПССК с учетом глубины конфликтов в регионе и неопределенности их решений.

жми

[ZINVOR]

Сдача хотя бы 1 метра освобождённых территорий - это не небольшое телодвижение, а полная капитуляция и угроза существованию РА.

[kaivaz]

Soyak said approximately 200,000 diaspora Armenians visit Armenia every year. "These people have roots in Anatolia. If they each stay for three days in Turkey and spend $100 a day, this would mean $60 million in tourism revenue for eastern Anatolia. It's not big money for İstanbul, but hotels in eastern Anatolia will enjoy a boom in income," Soyak said.

[Sari Galin]

Если бы турецкая элита не страдала османским синдромом то никакой границы они вообще бы не закрывали.

Наоборот, в годы аодовской ядерной зимы (концепция вне-сезонная) они имели замечательную возможность сгрести под себя в Армении всё и вся.

Причем по ценам тех лет ))))

Машалла, пайщики-партнеры из аод к ним бы в очередь выстраивались.

На АРФ повесили ярлык "харам", в Спюрк внесли ещё больший раскол.

Туркам полное раздолье. Приходи, плати откат и бери. При необходимости делай через подставу. Разные там Soyak Xuaki и прочие "друзья" армян.

А они эту возможность благополучно просрали.

Теперь их комментаторы возмущаются в разных Zaman-ax: почему влияние Турции в Армении на уровне бардюра ?

[kaivaz]

Да, в то время турки были заняты сгребанием всё и вся в Аз-ане, а позже - в Грузии. В Армении не успели.

Но сгребут сейчас - по нынешним ценам.

Как в 1920 году дула наших винтовок стали ватными и упали на пол-шестого под влиянием комм. пропаганды перед лицом кемалистской "красной" армии. Так и сейчас под сладкие песни САСа всякие там Стадион Самвелы и Лфики сольются в экстазе с турецким капиталом. И эту бизнес-спайку уже никаким политическим решением не разорвать.

Армения прикипит, приварится к Турции в экономическом плане. И тот кто вспомнит про 1915 год будет назван подрывателем экономической безопасности страны.

[Sari Galin]

В начале 90-х в каком-то риодажанейро имела место очередная международная говорильня. (Уже после того как был взят Кельбаджар.)

Так вот вечером ЛТП пошел к Демирелю штоб спрасить один вэш.

(Насколько я помню насчет закрытой границы.)

Так тот его даже на порог не пустил !!!

Передал через охрану что, мол, освободи эти земли ! ©

Вот так у них мозг работает, млядь

[Kompot]

Кайваз

Вот именно! За нас опять все решают. Неужели за 15 лет спокойной независимой жизни нельзя было построить сильное эффективное государство, объединяющее и координирующее диаспоры за рубежом. Уже и власть сменилась, сохраняя преемственность, а в итоге кроме, мягко говоря, спорного приглашения Гюля на футбол нынешний президент во внешней политике еще ничем не отметился. События вокруг не дают никакой надежды на продолжение 15-летней передышки. Сейчас исходные позиции у армян сильнее, чем в начале 20-го века. Очень многое зависит от нас самих.

Надо инициировать в армянском обществе дискуссии на тему определения национальных интересов и способов их достижения. В начале было слово…

[Sari Galin]

Амеры говорят: Занимайся тем что у тебя хорошо получается ©

Итальянцы преваратили туризм и легкую промышленость в много-милллиардную индустрию.

При это занимая туеву хучу народа и в то же время не обсирая окружающую среду.

Институт варпетутюна, которому в Италии тысячи лет, позволил создать репутацию когда ты можешь требовать 2 тыщи евро за пару туфель и 6 тыщ евро за костюм.

А у нас развивать эти индустрии чуть ли не питно ©

Испольнительна власть занимается гигантоманией. Они с кем соревнуются ?

Случайно не с Германией ?

[kaivaz]

А я слышал, что многие тряпки под иностранными (в том числе итальянскими) брэндами шьют в Армении.

Кстати и сами турки занимаются тем же самым - тряпьё, куртки, обувь и т. п.

Всё таки надо стать чуть выше этой средиземноморской обувно-башмачно-миниюбочной ментальности. Ай-ти даёшь!!!